Can music teach us how to live? In this interview Evan Rosa invites Daniel Chua—a musicologist, composer at heart, and Professor of Music at the University of Hong Kong—to discuss his latest book, Music & Joy: Lessons on the Good Life.Together they discuss the vastly different ancient and modern approaches to music; the problem with seeing music for consumption and entertainment; the ways different cultures conceive of music and wisdom: from Jewish to Greek to Christian; seeing the disciplined spontaneity of jazz improvisation fitting with both a Confucian perspective on virtue, and Christian newness of incarnation; and finally St. Augustine, the worshipful jubilance of singing in the midst of one’s work to find rhythm and joy that is beyond suffering; and a final benediction and blessing for every music lover.Throughout the interview, we’ll offer a few segments of the music Daniel discusses, including Beethoven’s Opus 132 and the Ode to Joy from Beethoven’s 9th symphony, and John Cage’s controversial 4’33”—which Daniel recommends we listen to every single day, and which we’re going to play during this episode toward the end.Show NotesMusic and Joy: Lessons on the Good Life by Daniel Chua (https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300264210/music-and-joy/)Can music teach us how to live?The emotional relationship we have with musicEveryone identifies with musicHow did you come to love music and write on it?MusicologistThe Sound of Music soundtrack (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeSQLYs2U8X0nTi15MHjMAWim3PxIyEqI)Listening to music at a young ageLove of Beethoven as a childWhat about Beethoven in particular spoke to you? Do you have memories of what feeling or challenges or thoughts or kind of ambitions were there?Beethoven as harder to listen to and sit through as it is quite disruptive and intellectual in styleBeethoven and Freedom by Daniel Chua (https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/beethoven-freedom-daniel-k-l-chua/1126575597)What pieces in particular, or what about Beethoven’s composition was particularly moving to you?Beethoven’s final string quartets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qaq881bwRI)“It’s very strange. It’s like the most complex and the most simple music. And somehow they speak very deeply to my soul and my heart. And you just want to listen to them all the time.”A Minor String Quartet, Opus 132 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUob2dcQTWA)A piece of thanksgiving to GodMessages sent by music as a young person about how things come togetherMusic interacts with usPlaying to understand how it is that a piece worksHow do we replicate what music communicates in our daily lives?Beethoven’s Ode to Joy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0EjVVjJraA)Stephen Pinker - music is auditory cheesecake“If music is joy, then what is it? What kind of joy is it?”Consuming music is not the same as joy; music is not simply entertainmentThe fanfare of terror in Ode to Joy“Humans are strange. We are very sinful creatures so we tend to weaponize whatever we have to weaponize and we weaponize music too.”“Whatever we do with music as humans, there is something more in music that speaks beyond out puny human point of view of music.”Our view of music and joy today are too human; music is cosmicWe tune ourselves, our virtues, our wisdom to the rhythm of the universe.Joy as something we obey, we listen to.“Music isn’t human. Music is actually creation.”Music, the Logos, and WisdomMusic as something that teaches us how to live.Wisdom taking delight, joy, in the universe.Music is deeply beautiful; there is profound goodness to itA lesson in flourishing found in music, in the tuning of ourselvesMusic is truthful; Christ as an instrument and salvation as being in tuneSheet music v performance as an analogy for incarnationMusic as an event that is happeningHarmony and coming together - finding one’s place within the turn; Taoist and Confucian traditions“Jazz offers this fantastic expression of a different kind of wisdom born through suffering and grief.”Improvisation in jazz; an exuberance - the weird and the spontaneous alongside the orderedMusic as an opportunity for emotion and a way to communicate and understand; spirituals and slave hymns“The order of the cosmos is basically tragic. It’s a bad, bad world. And music is a kind of consolation in that.”“Music can’t help but be meaningful.”4'33" by John Cage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWVUp12XPpU)Whatever we are, music is there.Using music to make sense of things; really attend to the world and its music.Augustine’s Book of Music “De Musica” (https://archive.org/details/augustine-on-music-de-musica/page/159/mode/2up)The spontaneous music of the worldDefiant joy in the music of slave hymns; a joy that will not be crushedA robust understanding of joyMusic tells us something about the world, the cosmos, of creation - Music reflects the heart of God.About Daniel ChuaDaniel K. L. Chua is the Chair...
